Pantagraph.com | News | District 87, union reach tentative deal, but are job cuts coming?

Note: All views and opinions expressed in reader comments are solely those of the individual submitting the comment, and not those of the Pantagraph or its staff.

ct wrote on Oct 11, 2008 3:46 PM:

" well your district may pay diff LLM, but i'm just reading the BEA contract

it includes paid study halls, paid conferences, and all the other perks i mentioned, in additions to the 56K avg salary for only 9 months.

again, i care about students, not enriching teachers
if teachers offered students a world class education, had more than half their students meet basic objectives, and so forth, then they would deserve the world class pay

the reality is the 56k is a low number as it doesn't include the paid retirement and other benefits. if you want more pay, just ask for the 20+% that goes to fund retirement, or maybe ask for a contract that does offer 92,000 dollars a year at the top end of the pay scale. "

LLM wrote on Oct 10, 2008 4:35 PM:

" ct: I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about when you say, "LLM, that is the difference". I was only correcting you on your misinformation about getting paid to go to a conference or of having my books paid for when I choose to take a graduate level course. I also don't get paid for transportation. If only...

Also, to clear up a little bit more of your misinformation, committee chairpeople aren't paid positions (I am one), but volunteer positions. Some extra positions that require more work, however, are paid (such as building chair positions) but those teachers not only teach their classes, but also are responsible for the department in their school. It's not significant pay by any means. And to reiterate, we don't get paid to attend a conference. Unless you have a different definition of the term "conference" that I'm not aware of. After school study hall? Not paid--also a volunteer position. I know of schools that did an after school tutoring program and those teacher were paid, but it was through a grant that the monies were provided--NOT the school district. I don't mind thoughtful and accurate comments. Yours just aren't either. "

skeeter1114 wrote on Oct 10, 2008 1:32 PM:

" Hey CT

$60,000 over 9 months would equal $80,000 over 12 months, not $75,000. Where did you learn your math at? Maybe you should check your math before giving others some "helpful assistance." "

ct wrote on Oct 10, 2008 1:07 AM:

" LLM, that is the difference. i believe a school should educate its students to the fullest possible, not provide high paying jobs. i want my children, and all children, educated by teachers motivated to perform their best and held accountable to the parents of the district.

teachers should be compensated like the taxpayers who foot their bill, paying according to individual skills, qualifications and delivered results; and the individual school should be able to determine appropriate pay and benefits in a free market competitive system. when you artificially base pay, you only set things up for failure, and our kids suffer and have suffered a near laughing stock of a system.

+tenure is ridiculous and does nothing to improve education
+taxpayer funded retirement is near criminal; FICA and personal 401ks are fine for us and should be for you
+nix the hidden wage bloat for crap like committee chairperson and after school study hall and similar or those vacations/conferences
+free education is relevant to the job, but not automatic pay increases

or just continue the status quo of selfish teachers and dismal results and attack me for wanting our children to have a quality education ;( "

T wrote on Oct 9, 2008 10:01 PM:

" Hey ct the starting teacher is around 33k in both districts so lets use the 9 months that you say they work 33000/9 = 3666.66 /4 weeks = 916.66 per week / 45 hours a week and I bet they work more = 20.37 starting pay. Now remember they don't pay into SS taxes because Illinois is one of 8 states where teachers don't pay into the system and also remember that if their spouse dies the also don't collect survivor benefits. And by the way if you devide that 20.37 by lets say 24 kids which I think is the average class size that's .84 per child per hour and that's to educate your child. I'd be willing to bet you pay your baby sitter a lot more than that. Do you happen to know what the turnover rate is with first year teachers? Bet not "

T wrote on Oct 9, 2008 7:21 PM:

LLM wrote on Oct 9, 2008 6:57 PM:

" ct: I am a teacher, though not in district 87, and I sincerely hope that the teachers have a contract that is fair and compensates them for their very hard work.

As for teacher's continued education: First, if we choose to attend a conference, we pay for it initially out of pocket, and are reimbursed for the cost of that conference. As for graduate school, yes, tuition is paid to attend ISU. However, we are given those tuition waivers because of the large numbers of ISU students both districts take for their student teaching placements. I do not get paid money to take a class, nor do I have my books paid for. Finally, we do not get a raise for every class we take. We move across our pay scale after taking a certain number of credit hours (between 8 and 16 credit hours) depending on the year, level of education, etc.

We're not better than you--no one said we were. You're treated differently because you chose a different career path. Come join ours and you'll be treated the same--no better, no worse. But I should warn you...it's hard work! "

TMIB wrote on Oct 9, 2008 6:23 PM:

" ct- I believe you are misinformed on a few things. First, most of the teachers that are making 40,000 a year have been teaching for 15 to 20 years. Go up to over 50,000 and you are talking near the end of their career and an advanced degree. Yes, teachers go in early and stay late. We do not complain about having to do so. We are only trying to defend what we make. There is also no overtime pay involved. Your hourly worker does get overtime I believe at time and half and possibly double time.

Second, you mean I could have been paid hourly for the 9 credit hours I took this last summer as required by the state? Transportation, meals, books, etc included? I want to work in that school district!!!! True, I did move over on the pay scale and the district only covered $180 of the $250 per credit hour. The raise was about $1000. "

ct wrote on Oct 9, 2008 4:08 PM:

" post simple factual numbers, and the hate comes a spewing

IMHO, i don't believe elementary teachers need $40/hour [that's average, many make a whole lot more], along with the tax payer paid retirement [again backed by us, unlike 401ks the rest of us have to put our own money in and our own risk]

so you say teachers work overtime, eeek-gads!! like none of us go in early and stay late. attend classes and seminars?? they get paid for every hour, and the transportation, meals, and the costs of that education, even the text books. my employer doesn't pay for my night classes or automatically raise my pay when i pass one.

i have every right to question their pay as they work for me and my chidlren. now if the public schools were providing world class educations, exceeding test scores and holding teachers responsible for results, then they would deserve top pay.

i want a pay structure tied to results that reflects what the common working taxpayer gets; he does NOT get a taxpayer funded retirement nor tenure. teachers are no better than us, and vice versa, so why are we treated differently??? "

t wrote on Oct 9, 2008 1:04 PM:

" ct would not last 5 minutes and by the way starting teachers dont make 60K "

steve... wrote on Oct 9, 2008 12:08 PM:

" No outrage over CEO's that make hundreds of millions while driving the economy into the ground. No outrage over AIG recieving a multi-billion dollar bail out and then throwing a $440,000 party for themselves. No outrage for the private sector pay in this town. No, just outrage if your a public servant or union employee. I would like to know where it is written that if you put out fires, take people to the hospital, protect the public, teach the public, or work in a hospital or factory you need to live hand to mouth and no better. Teachers spend a lot of time and money educating children and themselves when they are not in session. The vast majority work hard at what they do. That said, they aren't mom and dad and they aren't present twenty four seven with these kids. They aren't the only influence and can't be the last stop for education. With all the problems we have had with juvenile criminals in this town it shouldn't be surprising that this section of the population doesn't test well. Get off your high horses folks. "

LetsBeHonestHere wrote on Oct 9, 2008 11:32 AM:

" Hey Secretary: I must've hit a raw nerve with you....hee hee. I know you get breaks and I also know you sit to type, it's just funny to see people sitting around filing their nails or sending text s on cell phones under their desks and making personal phone calls. Oh and yes you deserve the break, but I bet 50% of their day is wasted time that we tax payers are paying for. "

pbj wrote on Oct 9, 2008 9:20 AM:

" Are they not entitled to raises?
I think they deserve a decent raise. Doesn't everyone? It's a shame they have to fight the board for it. Over the last few contracts their raises were very low 1-2%. Teachers take these low raises because they are committed to our children.

What % was your last raise?

As for the *average* salary many of these teachers and staff have masters degrees PHD's, etc. They have put a lot of time, effort and money into bettering themselves so they can better the students.

I know a nurse who last year worked part time and made more money than the *average salary* for a teacher (and that is with a 2 year degree). She is a great nurse and deserves every penny, but it puts the pay in perspective.

I hope their raise is good or else they should vote it down. "

secretary wrote on Oct 9, 2008 9:13 AM:

" Hey LetsBeHonestHere- Don't you get to take breaks at your place of business? As a secretary (however, NOT unfriendly!), I DO sit at my desk--that is the line of work that I'm in. It's very hard to type standing up! "

zip1542 wrote on Oct 9, 2008 6:54 AM:

" Once again teachers get what they deserve and some people have a problem with it. I can only tell you from experience (over 30 years) that not only do teachers derserve this boost in pay but actually it is too little. I know operators that make over $80,000 a year during their season and then in the winter drive snow plows and get well over the minimum wage, but this is paid in cash. I know teachers that work in the summer and go to school to move up on the salary schedule. Those people that belittle teachers are the ones that send ill-prepared kids to school with arrogant attitudes toward education that "you can't teach me" so I will act like an idiot in class. I will tell you that I love my career and even after retiring soon I will still find a way to be involved with the teaching of most precious resource(children). "

LetsBeHonestHere wrote on Oct 9, 2008 6:04 AM:

" Leave the teachers alone! Without them, our kids have no chance. Start the cutbacks at the "White House". Neilsen is way overpaid. Check out the salaries these people make! The Food Service Director is way over paid for a position that could be turned into part time along with alot of the secretaries that sit there all day. Get rid of the unfriendliest receptionist I've ever seen. I see guys sitting around everytime I go by the maintenace building, cut back in the kitchens....there is an alley across from the west side of the Junior High, that at any given time you can drive between 8:00 and 1:00 and see 2 or 3 food service people standing around smoking. I could go on, but I think I got my point across....Please, LEAVE THE TEACHERS ALONE. "

justmythoughts wrote on Oct 9, 2008 5:15 AM:

" "Areas where cuts can be made include supplies and materials, equipment, staff development, instructional supplies, technology and staff." It sounds to me like you could have simply worded this as "Areas where cuts can be made include anything that teachers require to educate".

MusicTeacher, why bring State Farm and Country Companies into this? "

420 wrote on Oct 9, 2008 2:39 AM:

" Hey when someone loses their job they can blame the other teachers for being greedy and demanding raises while the state is closing down basic services.
The states budget problems is a direct reflection of all states workers demanding more and more while non-state workers continue to get less and less. "

noogie wrote on Oct 8, 2008 11:33 PM:

" Look at ct spouting off mis-information. You obviously know NOTHING about the teaching profession. "

Woody wrote on Oct 8, 2008 8:15 PM:

" ct - I'm a public school grad, and it is $60K a year. Statistics show that the average teacher puts in about 10 hours a day during the school year. Those extra 2 hours a day will make up for about 9 weeks of that time off.

BTW, the statistics also show that public school grads do just as well at math (and maybe even a little bit better) than private school grads.

Lastly, if teaching was such a cushy job, why do over half of all new teachers leave the profession within 5 years? If it was really that cushy, you'd think the vast majority would stay. "

Woody wrote on Oct 8, 2008 8:06 PM:

" BigBrother wrote: "Its sad that our structure prevents us from paying teachers for performance instead of salary.
You keep saying this. But how would you determine performance for an INDIVIDUAL teacher? The best minds in American have tried to come up with a way, and have failed. Groups can be compared, but there are far too many variables to account for when comparing individuals.

BigBrother wrote: Sometimes a beginning level teachers is worth twice what the 15 year veteran is worth.Perhaps, but the statistics say otherwise. The statistics show that more experienced teachers - AS A GROUP - have better results than less experienced teachers. They also show that teachers with advanced degrees - AS A GROUP - have better results than those without. And they show that UNIONIZED teachers - AS A GROUP - have better results than non-unionized teachers.

BigBrother wrote: Nevertheless if you can read this post "thank a teacher" and if you can not read this post "thank the teachers union'! "
Again, the statistics show that UNIONIZED teachers - AS A GROUP - have better results than non-unionized teachers. "

BigBrother wrote on Oct 8, 2008 6:06 PM:

" Congratulations to the teachers on a new contract. Some of you earn every dime of pay and benifits. Its sad that our structure prevents us from paying teachers for performance instead of salary. It allows the poor performing teachers to ride on the backs of the excellent ones. Sometimes a beginning level teachers is worth twice what the 15 year veteran is worth. Nevertheless if you can read this post "thank a teacher" and if you can not read this post "thank the teachers union'! "

shiloh wrote on Oct 8, 2008 4:29 PM:

" $56,000/year??? That's not bad money. And there are so many that think teachers are underpaid. "

TMIB wrote on Oct 8, 2008 4:27 PM:

" As for stress, think about having 10 or 15 of your child's friends over for a party. Are you running to hide? Looking forward to the end of the party when all the children go home? Teachers gladly take on 25 to 30 children at one time and actually manage to teach then something. Teachers do not complain how much they make. You only hear from them when the community starts their bashing of the profession. Teaching has come a long way since it has been thought of as a second job for house wives. "

TMIB wrote on Oct 8, 2008 4:22 PM:

" CT- what is the going rate for a plummer or electrician? Do you know what is involved in teaching? You are also talking about the average pay after 15 years and an advanced degree. Teachers are still underpaid when you campare it to the private sector with similar degrees and years. Then again, you might want to go "low bid" when we are talking about your children. That hourly rate is the contractual rate. That does not include the extra time the teacher spends after that 8 hour day either at home or at school. Unless of course you believe the teacher can only work at the school. "

Scapegoat wrote on Oct 8, 2008 4:14 PM:

" Both of my in-laws have been teaching for over 30 years, and I have many friends who have entered the profession within the past 5 years.

Retirement benefits are solid, yes, but the insurance is subpar, and they regularly put in 12+ hour days during the school year (lesson planning, test creation, monitoring extracurriculars, grading, tutoring students, etc). They also frequently teach summer courses, as needed, by their district. In addition, teachers often spend summers attending teaching seminars and taking coursework to keep their certificates active and better themselves in their profession.

Then, they come in to find no planning period, packed classrooms, inadequate materials for the students, and students (8-10 year olds, mind you) dropping the f-bomb on them when asked to sit quietly in their seats. Administrators do very little about this out of fear of being sued, so teachers are expected simply to "deal with it," and the students who want to learn get the short end of the stick.

In short, if you think teaching is an easy job, even in moderately well-to-do districts, you have no clue. "

Kevin wrote on Oct 8, 2008 3:57 PM:

" i don't mind the raises at all. not a lot of money for what they do. my problem is the way they are pai, by our property tax that is going through the roof. many more higher assesments i'll have to move "

reggiebird33 wrote on Oct 8, 2008 3:50 PM:

" Hey ct,

No one is stopping you from becoming a teacher. Quit complaining and go out and do it! You have absolutely NO reason not to. You should really look at the state pension closely too...it is a real sweet deal!! And $60 K is nothing for a teacher. Many teachers in this state in their 40s and 50s make well over that. Then you should become an administrator. Many of them make well over $100K per year. Imagine retiring on that with the state pension. That would be no less than $70K per year for the rest of your life from the age of 56 on. You are right it is a good deal. Sign up and reap the benefits instead of complaining about it!! It doesn't make much sense to complain about something you can go out and do. "

MusicTeacher wrote on Oct 8, 2008 3:49 PM:

" not only that...that is the average salery, so that means that many teachers probably have additional education and experience. Wonder what the average salery for State Farm or Country companies is... "

MusicTeacher wrote on Oct 8, 2008 3:47 PM:

" Wow...I hope you really don't think that. Yes we we don't work 12 months, we have a lot of training (professional development) that we have to do during the summer and weekends. There is also preparation for the school year that we are required to do during the summer that we are not paid for. This is not including all the evenings and weekends work on school stuff during the school year. It is not uncommon for me to work 10-12 hours per day at school and then come home and do more. Plus it is not easy working with kids all day-I enjoy it, but it can be very stressful. So don't think we have it easy! "

hmmmm007 wrote on Oct 8, 2008 3:42 PM:

" if you think teaching is only an 8 hour a day job and that they don't work in the summer your crazy! why don't you find something positive to say about the hardest job out their or go try and teach for a day. I wonder what company you work at that let's you sit around and calculate teachers salaries anyway. "

Jelloshot wrote on Oct 8, 2008 3:26 PM:

" Well ct....go teach then... "

N595 wrote on Oct 8, 2008 3:17 PM:

" Hopefully it was much better than the 1% that was originally promised in the first submittal. Especially after the administrators took 6%. Must be nice to be in the public sector to take raises when your tax base is either loosing their job or not taking raises. Then again, Bloomington teacher salaries are way out of parity with other areas in the state with same economic base such as Naperville or Arlington Heights. "

ct wrote on Oct 8, 2008 3:14 PM:

" wow!

nearly 60k a year for only 9 months of work and generous healthcare and state backed retirement.... maybe i'm in the wrong line of work. chrimey that is nearly $40 per hour [$39.05 per hour worked X 8 hour working day X 180 working days = $56,242]

and for all you public school grads that have difficulty with math, that is a $75,000 year average pay "

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